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Especially when because of this we assing the investigation to the wrong team. It gives just the right amount of detail to get started, in a good, actionable format.
Yeah, that was basically most of the bug template we were filling when I used to work QA at Warner Bros. Lucky you to have that standard enforced within the org! We don't so I pretty much invariably have to respond to "bug reports" "foo doesn't work pls help" with "can you please format your bug report like this? Like working on their internal systems and stuff?
Netflix integrations or something? Sounds cool, bet you get to see movies before they come out too! Sorry for the delay! I was working at their Montreal Studio.
It's exclusively a video game studio. Even if the game is technically developed by Monolith Productions, Warner Bros. We didn't see movies before they got out but we had access to a persons theater room that I was able to "rent" for free outside of business hours to watch movies with friends and show them the non-secure areas of the office.
Cafeteria Free drinks! I'm not really into commics but we had a room with thousands of comic books that we could take and read anytime we wanted WB owns DC Entertainment. I worked there months when I was out of school before getting my first dev job. No sweat, I'm glad to see the reply at all : those perks do indeed sound really cool haha. Very important to also ask: Which application.
Get an URL if at all possible. Users tend to rename programs, even give them names of other programs. Our entire finance department can't wrap their heads around the fact that 'Oracle' is not a bookkeeping application. Worse, they are now convinced the new version is called 'fusion'. Oracle financials? Never heard of. Use this template: 1. When I do this 2. Here is what I expect to happen 3. But instead, this happens. One more tidbit: In the "When I do this", I find it useful to omit stuff that isn't interesting.
Does the thing fail if I do something immediately? Or does it only occur if the application has been dormant for a few minutes? Does it only occur using the mouse, or can I use the keyboard? Get a good set of steps for reproducing the problem, but wander a little off those steps to see what is actually necessary.
I've been surprised more than once when something that I thought was incredibly complex only required a few steps. And also been surprised when a complex repro was actually complex e. It's probably better to err on the side of having too many steps rather than missing cruicial steps to reproduce the problem.
And this is my software version and Linux distro. Also useful to run the app from the terminal, replicate the bug, and see if any logs pop up. Ugh no thanks, I'll just send them a screenshot and say "it's broken, please fix this! I don't know if I've ever had to talk to someone on my team about how they "over communicated" not the same as TMI!
Make the receiver responsible for saying "OK, that's enough, got it! Conversely I think you should generally write the smallest amount of text you can. It maximizes the chance someone else will actually read it. I sometimes try to follow the journalistic reporting way of writing. Not the clickbait style mind you. So I start it off with a few brief paragraphs of text explaining what I did, what happened and what I expected to happen.
Each paragraph only a couple of sentences long. Then below that I fill in with more details. Of course this still means that if you glance at it you still see a lot of text and may not bother reading. But my hope is that if by chance the recipient does read the first few paragraphs then it will provide the necessary motivation to either read on or to begin investigating on their own.
It's best to do something like 1. Think about what you would want to know if someone was reporting the bug to you. Provide at least that much information. WalterBright 28 days ago root parent prev next [—]. Usually sending just "help" and no other data is preferred. Don't send screenshots, don't make use of the ingame reporting tools pressing F11 , don't send steps to replicate. FpUser 28 days ago parent prev next [—]. The email with this exact words and nothing else - "something is wrong, what do I do?
I was biting my fingers trying not to reply with the first thing that came into my head. Please clearly describe your problem to us so we can help you. Save your generic answer so you don't waste your time doing so, but being pedagogical should be part of our work in my opinion.
FpUser 28 days ago root parent next [—]. Please clearly describe your problem to us so we can I don't :- I was speaking to everyone. Apparently I got your last sentence right. Well try to visit car repair shop and ask the same question as in the original email and then explain them what you really meant.
I don't hold myself and frankly answer that my crystal ball is on scheduled maintenance today. So when will your crystal ball be ready, could you then asap adress the issue?
Also keeping spare crystal balls would be really helpful. We are a small company supporting a free opensource product, we can't afford spare crystal balls. Even the one we have was bought on a secondary market, warranty expired in late 14th century. Conclusion: want good testing and bug reports of your game? Support linux. Gigachad 28 days ago root parent next [—].
Or have proper analytics. But not analytics that are too good, or certain people will write a lot of inflammatory articles about how your software is nothing but evil spyware. Seriously, though, having a robust and automatic crash reporting system very much helps track down bugs you're never going to get a good report on or be able to directly reproduce. It's not really that hard to do this: ask bug reporters to attach their logs.
Don't just take them preemptively "just in case". If I asked users to attach a bug report file, most of them would complain and tell me to stop waisting their time and get the problem fixed. I have many times explained to users that I found their issue in our reporting and have not ever got a negative response. The average user does not give two shits that you can see exactly what line of code their instance of your game crashed at.
They want to play a video game and not play find the bug with you. The vast majority of users would not even be as nice as to email you saying there was a crash. You're in a thread talking about Linux users who file good bug reports. If you are just sending a build ID and a stack trace, sure.
If you are sending memory dumps even partial or associating those stack dumps with identifying information e. And no, it being a common practice to just collect as much information as you can does not make it an OK practice.
Possibly, but how many of the bugs are rare edge cases i. Without knowing what priority or severity these bugs take, it is difficult to say how useful the increased volume of feedback is. Even if someone is not attempting to break the game, they might accidentaly hit those rare edge cases. Of course, you could infer the usefulness of the increased volume of feedback from the fact that a game author is extremely happy about it.
Overall, I don't see any particular problems with having reported issues. We definitely don't pay cloud storage per open issue or anything like that. Initial assessment of a bug report is not particularly difficult either. I'm not sure if your concerns translate to actual negative impact. Depending on what kind of game you have, those exotic edge cases can come to be the dominant behavior in games, particularly multi-player where slight advantages can lead to some players dominating every one else.
I'm not a gamer, but from what I've read, the whole industry has been transformed by the incredible lengths people go to, to cheat. So I would expect that edge cases might be really relevant to mainstream use because everybody is trying to break the game.
FTA it sounds like basically all of them were normal gameplay that affected all platforms. Just from the title, I went in expecting that percentage to be much higher, but still expected I'd get a chance to complain how report quality was not taken into account I expected Linux users to submit better reports!
Pleasantly surprised on all accounts :D. Kye 28 days ago parent prev next [—]. Sometimes I forget my detailed bug reports with steps I took, even if I can't reproduce it--since it might provide a hint to someone with insight into the programs internals--, are a weird outlier.
God damnit Clickbating is ruining any shred of useful information I am not sure why would one expect more linux bugs in a game made using a game engine I couldn't find any info and I am assuming this game is one, correct me if I am wrong.
If it is not working in linux, then it must be an engine bug, not a game one. If I am wrong then props to devs for having such a consistent game engine Perhaps other option is using cpp, and having UB that behaves differently in different compilers. But I doubt that as well. They are happy to exchange a tiny bit of GPU or viz burps for new features faster, as long as we are responsive to their reports! That also pushed us to a better dev cadence which wouldn't have worked for our Enterprise users.
Apofis 28 days ago parent next [—]. We're just used contributing bug reports and pull requests, sort of our thing.
It's not as prevalent with Windows or MacOS users, just not part of that culture. Great article, though he's benefitting from a specific slice of Linux users that are great to work with. On the other end of the spectrum, try releasing a php plugin for Wordpress, OpenCart, Magento, etc.
I released a mildly popular, open-source, free add on in this space. The Linux users there are decidedly less technical, but still doing it themselves.
And a weird entitlement thing where people had really high support expectations over something that was open source and free. Even a few expletive-laden emails. I did receive a few really helpful reports, pull-requests, and thank you emails I think the difference is: With a game that supports Linux, you get people who have chosen to run Linux instead of Windows because they prefer it.
They have also worked enough with their system to get their Linux system capable of running games well, which may not be trivial for the given distro. With a Wordpress plugin or whatever, you get people who are running Linux because they "have" to.
Trying not to sound "true Scottsman"y here, but most of the time these are not actually Linux users, these are Windows users who are further confounded by having to use an unfamiliar platform. Moru 28 days ago root parent next [—]. There are even a few php users trying to run windows server Yes, you get users who have linux as their 'daily driver', as opposed to those to dabble in it a bit on the side :.
For similar reason, I think the level of experience is probably different. Meaning those could be the same person and time is the important variable.
This is actually how I got started with development. I started running Linux in a VM for development, but my pathetic hardware couldn't really handle it, so I tried it on bare metal. I'm now running some flavor of Linux on my workstation, laptop and multiple servers and am exactly the sort of crazy person who will spend hours of their unpaid time compiling a detailed bug report with stack traces and all for even fully proprietary software.
In addition, in my experience maintaining a developer tool, an outsized source of bug reports is Linux users reporting already fixed issues in their outdated distro packages, or even problems introduced by their packager e. Arch-TK 28 days ago root parent next [—]. If you support distro packaging of your software which you should, since it should ideally reduce the load on you when it comes to triaging bugs and users are coming to you with distro specific bugs then you should: - Immediately close issues where the user has indicated that they did not test against the latest version or where the user has not answered the question "did you reproduce this issue with the current version of the software built from source?
New users are coming to linux on a regular basis and they're coming in with a windows mindset. It is important for the smooth functioning of both linux distributions and software projects to make users aware that the proper channels for reporting bugs they experience when using software which was packaged for their distribution is the distribution's maintainers.
Users need to be made aware that unless they're compiling directly from source and using a supported version then they have no business going to upstream with their bug reports.
You may think this is harsh but if you get backlash, distributions should have your back on this they usually do have information somewhere to inform users that bug reports should go to them first.
I recommend any open source project take this stance when it comes to bug reports. If someone finds a real bug and they are certain it's not one caused by their distribution then they can easily build your project and reproduce the bug there. Aside: If you are providing a library then an appropriate level of API stability is a must have if you want people to be able to actually test bugs in a newer library version. I strongly disagree - I'd rather all my users filed their bugs directly on the upstream issue tracker for my projects so that I can get a proper view of what bugs are being encountered.
If there are steps to reproduce then most of the time it will be a lot easier for you as the developer to just check if the bug still happens with the latest version than having the user or packager build it themselves.
Don't expect users just have a build environment laying around or can quickly set one up. Don't expect that building the latest version is always easy on every distribution. If its not easy to reproduce or if there are no reproduction steps then sure, ask for more information. It's also OK to refer to a distribution bug tracker if the user is not able to produce a useful report or if you suspect there is a packaging issue, but doing that for all reports of problemsx with distro builds, especially when using automation, is disrespectful of the time the user has spent on reporting the bug.
So sure, you can do that you don't owe users anything after all but I think its rude and will only turn potental future contributors away. I'm definitely glad that that is not how most projects handle user reports. If you are being overwhelmed by user reports then maybe you can find some dedicated people from your userbase that would be willing to help with bug triage?
Arch-TK 22 days ago root parent next [—]. In the case when a user is not technically skilled enough to test for the bug in the latest version themselves they should go to the maintainer whose job it is to be able to do that. How is it disrespectful? They're helping their distribution and their distribution should be forwarding the bug onto you if it's not their fault.
In fact, if the distribution is aware of it then the user is more likely to get a hotfix sooner than if they go straight to you. It is actually how most old style open source projects operate. If you're happy to accept direct bug reports which are either already fixed in the latest version or which may be distro specific issues then go ahead. Please don't burden every other project with this kind of noise by making it clear that this is a project specific policy.
Don't blame the user here - your bug reporting template should have users declare what package version they're using so that you can easily tell them they're on an outdated package. Flatpak is usually a boon in this regard since you can ensure your users are all on the latest packages, though you're making the tradeoff of having to deal with any Flatpak-specific bugs which I'd say is a decent tradeoff for solo maintainers. I do everything I can to make it trivial for users to give me all the information I need.
They just don't give a shit. Some people won't read. And the extra irony here is that my original comment already mentioned issue template asking for everything, yet you didn't read it and jumped in to tell me "don't blame the user".
Bug templates help, of course. But people do still just dump the wrong stuff in until the report is accepted. Like some kind of OS version in the App version field, for example.
Or some ambiguous thing like "latest". You can see this on many public repos. Oh, I would be grateful for even that. Often enough, the bug template is simply deleted, the last line of the error in non-debugging mode is pasted in along with a "doesn't work"; or just "doesn't work". While I don't do this intentionally, I do use a native Android app fasthub to submit issues. So far as I know, there isn't any GitHub app that has support for issue templates.
Occasionally I'll submit an issue without remembering to check for a template first, though I usually remember before actually submitting. Congratulations for acting exactly like his bad bug reporters. Most of the Wordpress developers I know are Windows users. I don't know too many of them, but still. That's interesting. Maybe some use Windows for local dev stuff, but I doubt many deploy their "prod" there.
I think that's the issue though: You're seeing "Linux users" that only use Linux on their servers because they are somewhat forced to do so. I would actually expect that almost all of those people use Windows or MacOS for their local development.
And those hosts often are not using up to date packages and don't even have up to date security fixes at times. I recently moved a wordpress site I was working on from a local dev setup onto a live bluehost server and was immediately hit with a bunch of out of date package warnings.
As the customer was using some cheap shared hosting service, there wasn't much I could really do about it. Shared hoster here. Too many customers run really old versions of code that need older versions of PHP and so on. We can't not provide them without losing the business.
We do of course, make newer versions available. Nope; just backporting showing the old version numbers. Keep in mind that WP has a vast installation base, so your local sample is not necessarily representative. I only know WP admins that a fairly comfortable with Linux and use it on a daily basis. Not a lot of Windows in the shared hosting space. And what little there is tends to be more expensive, from what I have seen.
And, perhaps other than knowing about permissions, you don't really need any Linux knowledge to use these hosts. Back in I had a website running on a shared unix of some sort. AdmiralAsshat 29 days ago prev next [—]. Glad to see that it was a positive view of the Linux bug reporters, rather than "Bah, I spend all my time fixing packaging issues from entitled Linux users who scream at me that the game doesn't work with their obscure, home-spun distro.
In a similar vein, I think the biggest value-add that Arch has over other distros is that it turns out having the filter of "can follow well written instructions through mildly tricky commands well enough to result in a bootable system" results in a community with a base level of competence, care, and patience that puts it at least two standard deviations above the other distros and at least four I know how small the percentile is now above just the general wash of garbage that you get when you Google for Windows issues.
It creates similar effects to the different credit card companies. Why would anyone accept Amex and its higher fees? Because they bring you higher value customers, sometimes dramatically higher value. Because without that filter you are getting feedback from, at best, people who cannot even copy paste commands from a wiki.
You might be surprised how many people are out there which can't even read a wiki close enough to follow instructions in it. Plus in my experience a lot of Arch users don't just "copy past instructions" they also somewhat understand why this instructions are needed, the Arch Wiki is grate as a resource for setting up things when you understand what you do, but it's often terrible when you just want a step by step guide.
Any way the main benefit of Arch is that it's close to stable upstream repose, instead of sometimes lacking not just month but even years behind wrt. LTS distros with years behind features is in many casea a feature many appreciate. Through without question a major reason why the few problems I did ran into haven't been a problem was due to my understanding of Linux.
The is the misconception that Arch is bleeding edge, it's not. It's the latest stable releases of the software it composed of. And at least for my use cast the amount of headache it reduces by doing so far outweighs the amount of problems I ran into which are in my experience few, and iff you have the necessary skills normally easy to work around.
I believer you, what I dislike is those people that push everyone into Arch and omit to add the things you added.
I bet that a vanilla LTS where you only update for security reason is more stable and risk free. If you have the skills I don't need to directly recommend it to you, you already know it. If you don't know it you likely don't have the necessary skills.
Through by being opinionated about the choice of packages and way of setup and adding a QA Team, more CI and slightly delayed non-security updates like 1 day or two you probably could produce a grate experience even for casual users. Hm, but then as a company producing a custom Linux distro is rarely worth it and often special purpose enough to not care about the benefits this approach would bring. I don't think a rolling release will ever work for casual users, there are too many configurations of hardware and things you might not know people are using, some package update could affect someone printer and you cost this person a job opportunity.
Then you have the GUI chnanges in apps, it is too frustrating to make the user learn weekly some new GUI workflow because app X decided to improve stuff. Arch has a great use case for people that actually need latest stuff and for the people that just really want the latest stuff to satisfy their appetite of checking new features.
How do you undo an app or subsystem after an update you don't like? For example I upgrade my IDE but not in place, I keep previous version just in case the new one is buggy or they again moved shit around. For my main system I am on LTS and I upgrade if there is a need and not to get high on version numbers.
For example I tested new versions of kernels and video drivers and end up on what feels right for me and stopped there. Sometimes the new video driver is more unstable then the older ones so I would never do a driver update without having a good reason and time to evaluate it.
Arch keeps a package cache of old packages, if you want to forever. So installing old packages is trivial iff you had them installed before. It depends how much older.
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